Have you ever wondered what the scientific crossover looks like between our biological processing and spiritual phenomenons? This week, Dr. Karl dives deeper in part two of learning to hear from God, by highlighting the evidence that proves our brains were DESIGNED to work best in community. Oftentimes our negative experiences in life result in a memory anchored distorted perception of God’s love and character. Let’s take action and initiative and choose to live a lifestyle of seeking healing and addressing triggers head on! You are so capable and able to live in freedom!
Here is episode 66 Outsmarting Our Systems of Self Protection with Dr. Karl Lehman and Dr. Shannan Crawford:
[00:00:00] Dr. Shannan Crawford: Hey friends. Thanks so much for joining us. This is Unlock U with Dr. Shannan Crawford. I’m a clinical psychologist, leadership consultant, and a really big fan of you getting to fulfill your life purpose. I want you to get unstuck and unlock your potential relationally, emotionally, spiritually, and vocationally. Thanks for joining us. And let’s get started.
Hey everybody. What an incredible opportunity to sit with Dr. Karl, psychiatrist and the founder of Emmanuel approach. He has spent a lot of years helping people hear God for themselves in a brain science way, which I so appreciate that we are very magnificently, wired and sophisticated.
And now we’re talking specifically, if you are the person who has kind of struggled to hear God, or even you have weird funky pictures or sensations, you try to think about God. Um, even in my own life and in working with clients, sometimes I’ll say [00:01:00] picture Jesus and they’ll see the male body. And, it freaks people out.
Um, and we wanna unpack why that is one, if you have had any kind of odd, weird God Jesus experience, you’re normal, you’re not broken there’s brain reason. Why? And he’s gonna share about anchor memories that actually create the filters that make it really hard to hear and see God when we have any kind of big trauma or small trauma background.
So thank you, Dr. Karl for joining us again.
[00:01:31] Dr. Karl Lehman: Hey, you’re so welcome. I’m glad to be here. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I guess last week, um, we talked about similar brain science stuff that can, um, Dramatically increase your success, rate your, the chance of it, of, of you being able to perceive Jesus’s living tangible presence and kind of sense, an interaction, a relational interaction.
You’ll be able to sense communication back and forth. You can ask a question, you’ll sense an answer. You’ll feel a actual living, inter a living interaction with Jesus simple tools [00:02:00] to do that. And my experience having done this for tens of thousands of hours is there’s a lot of people right out of the box, those simple tools.
Fantastic. Good for them. good for them. Yeah. I mean that it’s well, it’s wonderful that we can, we can teach, lay people to use these tools. We send a mission team to Uganda. We have, you know, 45 volunteers show up. You know, most of them are 23 year olds with third grade educations and they can learn those simple tools, positive memory, strip appreciation, get your license circuits on.
If you got a God memory, that’s good. Invite Jesus. And then describe what comes to your, whatever comes into your awareness. Two thirds of the time. Whenever, half the time, actually in third one countries, they have a lot of faith. It works even better. The fact. A few hours of training with 20 something year olds with third grade educations and it works half, two thirds of the time.
That’s crazy. That’s wonderful. That’s amazing. But there’s also a lot of people and Dr. Shannan and I actually are both in that category where it doesn’t work so easily, so quickly. and, [00:03:00] uh, the, the, by far, the most common, you know, the, the single most common, the second most, I mean, the, the, the top three things that get in the way are variations of memory, anchored interference of some kind.
Yeah. And give an example that people will all get. And we all kind of know. So let’s say, um, you know, I’m a woman. I married. My father was an alcoholic and he would come home drunk. You could smell alcohol in his smell, alcohol on his breath. And he would sort of be lay bio and sometimes violent and scary.
So. 20 years later, I get married. My husband, you know, maybe he goes out with his friends and has like one beer never gets drunk. Never no, uh, no behavior. Anybody else would ever absorb to be a problem, be a problem. But if I smell alcohol on his breath, my emotional memories will come forward and. Even if I have some awareness of it, hopefully, but a, a lot of the pain, a lot of the [00:04:00] emotional memories from dad who really was a scary, toxic alcoholic will get transferred onto my husband if there’s just some kind of a stimuli link.
Yeah. And even if he’s not doing anything, actually observable behavior, that’s problematic. Just, just the most important man in my life smells like alcohol. The, the red flags go up into sirens and start blaring. Well, the same thing happens with God. If I have a negative experience with my gym teacher, who’s kind of the, the authority figure who’s in charge of the playground and he does not do his job to kind of, um, make it safe for the little kids.
If he sort of ignores the fact that the bullies are kind of cheating all the time and dominating the playground. Um, this is actually a real example for my life, a sneak in a sneaky way. And, and if I were the enemy, I would do this. If a person has painful memories that are stuck, that have not been they’re, they’re subtle, small traumas that have not been resolved.
If you can get the negative content content [00:05:00] from that memory anchor and. Find ways to get that to transfer onto the Lord. You’re gonna, you, you can produce, um, very effective, easy to manufacture barriers between a person’s heart and being able to connect with, have a life giving connection with God mm-hmm
So, yeah, not, not a surprise. There’d be certain situations in my life that would kind of, uh, where I feel like God was not protecting me from the bullies mm-hmm and it would, uh, at least. Other people would look at it and not see that. But if there was enough of a similar, just like, you know, I just smell alcohol on the breath.
And even though he’s not doing any behaviors that are actually bad, there’s enough of a memory there’s enough of an association link. Something would trigger that memory. It would feel true to me. I can’t trust God to protect me. God’s just gonna look the other way. He’s like my gym teacher.
He’s not gonna take care. Right. I have a negative experience with a coach. I have a negative experience with my big brother who, you know, sits on me and, and thinks it’s funny. And I don’t think it’s very funny. Um, I have a negative experience with my dad, with an [00:06:00] employer with, um, there’s a hundred places in life.
You could have negative experiences that get subtly transferred onto the Lord mm-hmm and they will cause you to have a memory anchored, distorted perception of God’s character and heart. And to me, um, to me, that is the most important reason to get healing for old. Because I can promise you, it will steadily.
Uh, if you do that as a lifestyle, which is, is my proposal, my, my exhalation to people is to make that a lifestyle to notice. When you have triggers to notice when something is triggered or you have a, you have an exaggerated reaction mm-hmm huh? That must mean there’s something in the past. Getting started.
And have a place in your life, a prayer partner friend, where you can do a manual prayer, a therapist, you work with, have a place in your life where you can, when you spot those triggers, you can go take care of them and just steadily, you know, as you go through life, just sort of shovel ’em out, you know, you don’t have to go take going on a retreat and come out.
Perfect. That’s not gonna happen. [00:07:00] But if you have a lifestyle of healing, yeah, I can promise you as you do that, you will on a regular basis. She’ll like, oh, that, that particular pain. It was affecting my perception of God’s heart. And since I, since I resolved that specific traumatic memory, This old, weird thing that used to feel true about Jesus doesn’t feel real anymore.
Now. It just feels true that he’s my friend that he’s safe with. He’s trustworth he’s life-giving. And I, as I was telling Dr. Shannan, before we started recording on the website, there’s a supplementary chapter for the big line book. It’s like 45 pages long about this phenomenon, about how you can have memory anchored hindrances between you and.
And most of the chapters are true story examples. Mm-hmm to kind of illustrate the principles. And then I think there’s maybe 23 in 23 in the chapter and 21 of them are from my life and the, the cool thing is as you do that, you will feel and [00:08:00] see, you will observe your connection with the Lord steadily improve.
And as those memory anchored hindrances are identified and resolved, it will be easier to perceive God’s presence and connect with God. Your ability to hear accurately will improve. The connection will be stronger and clearer. And every aspect of your connection with the Lord will steadily improve. As you get rid of, uh, old, painful experiences that are the memory anchors for distorted perceptions of God’s character.
I don’t think there’s any way to exaggerate how important that is and how valuable that is and just it’s the way our brains are wired. We all kind of get that with other people. Like I said, you know, the alcoholic dad, and then you get transformed into your husband. And that’s just that’s the way the brain works.
And it seems to work the same way with our relationships with.
[00:08:52] Dr. Shannan Crawford: So, so good. It’s so good. And I, it’s just making me think of how many times we don’t realize, because we’re looking at the [00:09:00] person or we’re thinking about God at a conscious level. So the prefrontal is focused in the present and we don’t realize the unconscious mind is the hard drive.
That’s still creating our auto populating, those filters and life experiences. Yeah. And so it’s kind of transposing. Face, because I think in our land of mental health, it’s easy to make those connections. But a lot of times when you’re the person or when it’s me, it’s really hard to make the connection of dad being an alcoholic from the past.
And today I’m just irritated and I don’t feel safe with your partner. So, yes, it’s really hard to make that connection if you’re not recognizing, oh, I have a whole different system running in the background, like a hard drive that auto-populates all of these filters, beliefs, life experience, classical conditioning, and that’s getting projected onto God.
And so, yes. I wanna hear you outsmart yourself.
[00:09:53] Dr. Karl Lehman: Yes. So, uh, uh, along the lines of what Dr. Shannan was just saying. The expanded [00:10:00] version of those comments. There’s a, I have two books. One’s all about the Immanuel approach. And the other one is sort of the. World view of, of implicit memory, how old trauma can, where it comes from and how it can be sneaking and invisible.
How implicit, how invisible memory from old trauma can kind of sneak forward quietly and not be recognized then how there’s a part of your brain that kind of makes sense out of the world. What’s happening in front of you. I call the verbal logical explainer. And what it usually does is looks at whoever’s standing in front of you and tells you a story about why they’re causing your emotions that you’re experiencing.
Right. Yes. And most people I’m so glad you brought that up. Most people do not recognize the connection. Mm-hmm the way it happens. Um, this is I’ll have a conversation with God about this one. This is a divine design feature. I’d be like, God, why wouldn’t you give us a bell? Like, I wish he had included an implicit memory bell so that whenever old emotional memory is sort of subtly sneaking forward from an old trauma that a little bell would ring.
And there’d be a little part of your screen, like, you know, on the science fiction movies where you have this little heads up. [00:11:00] For the robot or whatever. And there’d be a little icon in the corner that would flash and a little bell would chime in ding, ding, ding, implicit memory, you know, Hey, you’re being affected by old trauma, old traumatic memory.
So that’s like in my suggestion box says, Lord, why didn’t you include that? Exactly. All joking aside. Um, my second book is all about that stuff, trauma and that emotional memory and how it slides forwards, slides forward invisibly, and how you almost always look at the person in front of you and tell yourself a story about why they’re causing whatever emotions are actually coming from an old memory.
And if you don’t spot that you put old. On the people who are in front of you in the present. Absolutely. And if, if that old stuff is contributing to a conflict, there’s no way you’re gonna resolve that conflict. If you’re not aware of the fact that half of the trouble, two thirds of the trouble is coming from the past.
Right. And if you’re insisting the person in front of you take responsibility for that old stuff, they can intuitively feel that that’s [00:12:00] not right. They, they recognize, Hey, I’ll own a third, I’ll own a piece of this, but I can’t. You wanna bill me for the whole thing? Mm-hmm, , I’ll own 30% that’s mine, but they’re not gonna be able to acknowledge, to, to validate or, or cooperate with a plan where you’re insisting that they own and pay for mm-hmm the 72% that’s coming from your dad.
Yeah. And what you have, there is an irreconcilable difference. Mm-hmm . If you have a. And old implicit memory from trauma is coming forward and affecting it. And you don’t recognize that. And you’re, you’re insisting that your partner or your friend or your boss is owning stuff. That’s not theirs. That the only way forward that feels okay to you is for them to own it.
They can’t do that honestly. And you’re stuck. Mm-hmm if you spot that and you recognize, oh my. Some of this has come in from the past. You take care of that piece. You come back to the same disagreement and all of a sudden it moves now. And my wife and I have done that experiment. We’ve been married for 31 years.
Now [00:13:00] we’ve done that experiment. And this is, this is crazy. You know, the first 10 years of our marriage we did without these tools. So we had a, we had a collection of, you know, maybe 10, 12, 14 arguments, you know, issues where repeat, repeat. Yes. And we had gone and I, by the time you get in 10 years after the first three minutes, we could both, I could tell you, okay, you’re gonna say this.
I’m gonna say this. You’re gonna say this. Let’s just skip the middle, you know, go to the end. I mean, it would be a familiar pathway. That would be the same, every. And as we both have worked on healing, old stuff, one by one, every one of those conflicts that we would have over and over again, every single one of them has been resolved.
We would realize, oh, this, uh, these three pieces of that conflict were coming from the past. And we, those have now resolved. We’ve come back to the same issue we’ve been going in circles on for 10 years. And we’ve like in, in [00:14:00] 20 minutes, I am I kid you not in 20 minutes, we’d be like, oh, then we’d figure it out together.
When there wasn’t old stuff, old trauma, auto-populating the fields, subtle implicit memory coming forward visibly affecting our discernment on both sides and causing us to loop. We took care of that piece. We come back to the same disagreement. Yeah. And 20 minutes. We’re like, why didn’t we do that?
Isn’t this, this isn’t this the thing we’ve been fighting about or going in circles about for 10 years, and then both being in this world, we realized, oh, oh, oh, wait a minute. Wait. That’s it. And that would make sense to us that maybe that maybe that sounds unbelievable to some people. No, but. But we did that for 10 years, the old way.
And then over the next 20 years, I was just faithfully working on our healing stuff. Every one of those old repeated conflicts has been resolved. Crazy. Unbelievable.
[00:14:56] Dr. Shannan Crawford: That’s. So is. Firing and hope driving, [00:15:00] because I think a lot of us, whether it’s dealing with God or dealing with friends or family or spouse, it’s like, dear God, I wanna strangle you.
Why can we not communicate? And if we would take the onus and personal responsibility to say, why don’t I work on my side and work on my triggers and start recognizing if, if there’s a theme, cuz a lot of times. We may not have a specific trauma, right? So it may be low grade misattunement. It might be apparent that there was just this weird, subtle power dynamic that if you didn’t quite do what they wanted, they never threatened you.
It was never punch in the face,
[00:15:36] Dr. Karl Lehman: but there’s a sneaky, subtle, not so reason to spot. It could be
[00:15:40] Dr. Shannan Crawford: very implied messages that you learned up. I, I better not ever mess up and so we can make internal vows and judgements. And now we’re replicating that. And again, it’s, auto populate just like your brain knows to not step off tall buildings.
It auto populates that reflex arc to go, oh, Pull back, but on the other [00:16:00] side it also causes you to go, oh, I will never let someone talk to me like that. I will never, or I will always shut down and play Dom and never, you know, or I’m gonna just circle and keep saying the same words because the brain is just doing what it was already told to do.
Just like encoding a computer. Yep. So I love what you’re sharing with us and it applies to all of our relationships. Oh yeah.
[00:16:22] Dr. Karl Lehman: Not just God. I mean, I think the number one reason to do it is cuz it’ll improve your relationship with God. It’ll also improve your relationship with your spouse, with your friend, with your boss, with your employees, with your children, with your parents, with your siblings, every relationship you have in the world.
Will be improved by the same thing. So that’s actually, that’s a lot of good reasons to do this, especially
[00:16:42] Dr. Shannan Crawford: since we’re relational beings at
[00:16:44] Dr. Karl Lehman: we’re relational beings. And that’s actually the most important I, I relationship and community, I think is the most important, like single thing in, in our lives on this earth that God wants us to be in the middle of.
So that’s kind of a big deal, kind of a big deal.
[00:16:58] Dr. Shannan Crawford: I agree. [00:17:00] I agree. And I’ve worked with people that they’ll say, well, it’s just me and. You know, I don’t need community. I don’t need relationships, churches, or mess. People are too dramatic. So what would you say in response to
[00:17:12] Dr. Karl Lehman: that? Oh, well, so one thing I’ve already said, I’ll say again, is our brains were designed to work best in community mm-hmm and the Jesus thing.
I mean, the number one thing I do in my whole life is help people connect with Jesus. So the idea of having a living interactive connection with the tangible friendship presence of Jesus, that’s the most important thing in the. Well, actually, this is right in the Bible. First is God. And then second is each.
So there’s like the second commandment. I mean, number one, it’s love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul. Number two is do the same thing with other people. Mm-hmm so that’s kind of a straightforward, biblical principle, and there’s a bunch of ways in which our brains have been designed to work best in the community and the invisible presence of Jesus.
Actually, the, the, the clearer you’re able to do that, that can actually be a more and more real part of your community, which is the coolest thing in the world. Mm-hmm . [00:18:00] But especially at the beginning, um, other people with real faces and voices, your brain actually works better if you actually include other real living people in your community.
And it’s the way your brain’s built. And some other time we can maybe talk more about that, but it’s just, it. That’s really, that’s serious, pretty, pretty well documented, compelling, uh, compelling research in a number of different areas where your brain just works better. Your whole life works better if you’re in community, it’s huge in the Bible.
Second commandment, uh, your brain is designed that way. And, and one of the examples we, all we already gave is. If you really want to have a good connection with Jesus, actually the best way to do it is to do a prayer with another person. Mm-hmm I mean, your brain will actually be more able to connect with Jesus.
If you pray with a prayer partner where you describe out loud, the subtle stuff that comes into your awareness. So if you tell me, oh, I really wanna have the, uh, the. Like the living presence of Jesus, be the number one thing in my life. Well, the best way to do that [00:19:00] is to include other people mm-hmm and do prayer in the community.
[00:19:04] Dr. Shannan Crawford: No, it’s so good. Um, and I’ve actually so far up to this point, I’ve never heard someone say that that doesn’t have an original trauma wound. And so a lot of times we can. Think that we’re connecting with Jesus, but the Bible says, if you hate your brother, you can’t say that you love God who you can’t see.
So there is a principle that our human relationships are paralleling our God relationship and vice versa. So when I hear people say, oh, I don’t need to be, you know, in church or I don’t need to be in a relationship. I don’t need to blah, blah. And maybe there’s a season. Maybe there’s something going on. But as a lifestyle that’s usually indicative of, I have a really insecure attachment style.
And so there’s an illusion that I can be in control in my relationship with God. Now, the person would never acknowledge that. We don’t realize that our motive is to make sure that it’s me and God, and I just follow whatever he tells me to do. But [00:20:00] yet you’re the recipient deciding what you think he’s telling you to do.
And then there’s murky waters because now you’re not loving your brother in the same way that you’re saying that you’re loving God. So probably something with your attachment style may have been impacted. And that’s why it feels so dramatic and overwhelming and extra to be around humans. Because you might be being triggered.
There could be some of that implicit bias, that emotional experience that’s starting to filter and magnify how much you perceive in others. And there’s always the principle that you could be hooking people into replicating a dynamic at an unconscious level and not realize that you may be standing off kind of, you know, cold, or you may be easily offended.
[00:20:45] Dr. Karl Lehman: There’s subtle stuff you don’t even re. Absolutely. I agree with everything you just said there, Dr. Shannan and the, that the other, the out strong yourself book I’ve mentioned. I think it makes a very compelling story with lots of, with more brain science. It talks a lot about [00:21:00] why it’s so subtle. Um, it talks about how implicit memory can be invisible.
The memory that comes from old trauma, I call implicit memory. It’s, you know, the memory researchers talking about explicit memory, which is the, um, like we’re all aware of what did you have for B. Oh, I missed my cup of coffee. I had a couple, I had a little bowl of Cheerios and it feels like you’re remembering your own life story from this morning.
And that’s an explicit memory and it feels like you’re remembering something from your own life. Well, there’s other forms of memory and there’s a number of them, um, that are all kind of included in the, in the box in a larger category of implicit memory that just means you don’t have that subjective experience of, oh, this is memory.
and some examples. Oh, right away. You’ll recognize physical skills. Mm-hmm , you know, you learn to use the typewriter. You learn to walk. Now, how many of you, every time you walk, you don’t feel like you’re remembering a part of your life story of learning to walk. It’s a motor skill you learned when you were, you know, a year and a half old mm-hmm and it’s it [00:22:00] invisibly gets activated and does its job with no conscious awareness of, oh, I’m remembering you just.
Same with typing with tennis, with any kind of physical skill. There’s a whole category of memory. That’s a physical skill memory that does not feel like I’m remembering having Cheerios for breakfast. Well, the short, long story is short. The emotional memory that comes from old trauma is in a similar category and it kind of slides forward visibly.
And the book has a much more detailed description of stories and examples and brain science that I, if people have trouble with that, when, if you’re a listener and you’re kind of not sure about this one, uh, I would encourage you to, well, Charlotte and I, my wife and I, we apply principles from that book every single day of the.
I mean 360, maybe 364. There might be one day where we’re both sleeping all day. Because we have the flu or something. Um, but like 364 days a year, we use principles from that book and it would, I, um, I think it would help if you’re not [00:23:00] sure about those principles. Dr. Shannan has been talking about. It does a real thorough job of brain science.
Here’s the case studies. Here’s examples, real life examples from, from our, my clinical practice. And it, uh, when you put it all together, it’s a very, very compelling picture. Yeah. This really is the way your brain works and small trauma memories can slide forward quietly mm-hmm and then that part of your brain that explains what’s happening right now will tell you a story about the person standing in front of you.
And most people can’t feel any of that and they buy. And they don’t realize that old stuff is affecting them. Yeah. And it’s, like I said, it’s impossible to fix a problem. If two of the important variables in the equation are not being acknowledged. There’s no way you’re gonna solve that one. Yes,
[00:23:44] Dr. Shannan Crawford: absolutely.
And we can drive ourselves crazy and drive away important relationships in this community. We are all about unlocking you and investing in you, having a personal life, your own relationship with yourself, your [00:24:00] relationship with others, your relationship, and your faith, and in your relationship at. All of us are bringing our background, our life experience, this whole smorgasboard onto those around us.
Mm-hmm . And if you notice there’s a theme where you’re perpetually the victim or the outsider, or you always have to be the leader, you always have to be in control or whatever that theme might be. Do your own work. And I’m very open on this channel that I am a clinical psychologist. I do this for other people, but I have my own appointments.
There are blind spots. There are defense mechanisms, coping mechanisms that protect me from my stuff. So please. A part of this journey and getting truly unlocked is investing in yourself, investing in a good community. Obviously there are unhealthy churches, unhealthy people out there, but you don’t have an excuse.
There are enough good, healthy people and healthy churches and places that you can get invested into. And [00:25:00] we want you to get these resources. So, Dr. Karl, what are the books that you would recommend and how do people get in contact with you?
[00:25:06] Dr. Karl Lehman: Yes. The easiest thing is our website. Www Emanuel approach, all one word.com and there’s piles of material.
There’s little video clips, you know, preview Mo like a preview from a movie or like live sessions where you can just in five minutes you can see Jesus heal somebody. I mean, just the good parts. So there’s like little video clips, there’s free download essays. Then from the website, you can, the two books I mentioned, you can find those, then there’s also.
Actually, this is just new for them, from the last couple of months. Over the last two years, it’s spent like 2000 hours, two and a half thousand hours putting my basic training seminar about the Emanuel approach into a DVD set. Somewhat condensed version, but it’s essentially the basic training seminar.
So for each component, like the ones I mentioned, I explain the theory and then my wife and I demonstrate it [00:26:00] where I’m the recipient, she’s a facilitator. We, whatever, we, I just, I explain the theory, then we demonstrate it live. And then there’s work handout, uh, worksheet, handouts, exercise, handouts, where then you can pair up in two or three and practice what we just explained and demonst.
So that’s a fantastic resource that’s just available. I mean, people have been asking that for 20 years and it just, it was a big, long thing to do. And, and so that’s also available. You can find that from the website. Um, oh, and the out spotting yourself book. So you can squeeze this in. There’s, uh, those relational circuits I talked about.
Most people find you can recognize when they go off and on mm-hmm and most people can learn to recognize when their relational circuits go off much, much easier than recognizing when they’re triggered. If you say, are, are you triggered? Are you being affected right now by old trauma? Most people will say, unless it’s really extreme, they’ll say, no, this is just real well, [00:27:00] almost a hundred percent.
If you’re triggered and you don’t catch it and it’s invisible, your relational circuits will also go off. And the book explains why. So people who have trouble spotting when they’re triggered, can almost always learn to recognize when their relational circuits go off. And if you read the three chapters and it convinces you, you’ll realize, oh, Hey, anytime the little warning light, that, that thing I said about, I wish there was a screens up display by a little, a real red light.
That would beep when you’re triggered. Well, it’s, we actually we’re halfway. Because it’s, it’s fairly easy to recognize when your relational circuits go off mm-hmm and if you, if you, uh, if you’re convinced by my argument, you’ll say, Hey, the red light, the relational circuit light is flashing until proven.
Otherwise I think I must be suddenly triggered in some way. So throw that one in, and that’s the, the second book talks all about that. And that’s one of the ones that Charlotte and I use every single day, every single day.
[00:27:57] Dr. Shannan Crawford: Ah, we have to have you so many times back. This [00:28:00] is awesome. Dr. Karl, we are instant pals.
I respect you so much for the work that you’re doing to help people. We love you guys and we’ll see you for the next episode. Bye.